Official Baseball Thread

You can show me all the advanced stats you want. The guy played in a launching pad and had to wait until his last year of eligibility to get elected. Hall of Very Good, for sure.
 
BSimp603 said:
You can show me all the advanced stats you want. The guy played in a launching pad
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I just showed you stats away from Coors. Also he played the beginning of his career on astro turf, which probably led to less time on the field due to injuries the remainder of his MLB career, negatively effecting his counting stats.

BSimp603 said:
had to wait until his last year of eligibility to get elected.
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HoF is HoF. There aren't levels to Cooperstown.
 
You got me, I guess. All I needed was a shitload of advanced, mathematical stats to point out what actually watching him play games couldn't, which is when I think of the very best players of that era, I think of.......Larry Walker.

bugs said:
do you think omar vizquel is a hall of famer? what about scott rolen?
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If Ozzie Smith is in for his defense, I can be swayed for Vizquel's case. Rolen? Yeah, no.
 
I, for one, think that relying on the eyes of an arbitrary list of non-athletes seems like an ideal way to gatekeep the highest level of individual recognition in any sport. Surely a test of eyes is impartial. And better yet, it can't be wrong because it's that person's very own eyes.

If that person was 12 during the prime of someone's career and watched their highlights on Sportcenter at least 4 times a week, they are more than qualified to flip a coin and present baseless arguments using phrases like "I feel that....", "For me...", And "if you actually watched some of his games..."
 
Kasher said:
I, for one, think that relying on the eyes of an arbitrary list of non-athletes seems like an ideal way to gatekeep the highest level of individual recognition in any sport. Surely a test of eyes is impartial. And better yet, it can't be wrong because it's that person's very own eyes.

If that person was 12 during the prime of someone's career and watched their highlights on Sportcenter at least 4 times a week, they are more than qualified to flip a coin and present baseless arguments using phrases like "I feel that....", "For me...", And "if you actually watched some of his games..."
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Again, you got me. Seems like the best way to judge a player's worthiness of inclusion into the Hall of Fame is when agenda-laden sportswriters spend a decade debating them via nerd numbers, and only after no one is left to vote for in these esteemed, unbiased, old, white guys opinions, guys who may or may not cover the game anymore, only THEN are they deemed a Hall of Fame player.

lol.
 
Kasher said:
I, for one, think that relying on the eyes of an arbitrary list of non-athletes seems like an ideal way to gatekeep the highest level of individual recognition in any sport. Surely a test of eyes is impartial. And better yet, it can't be wrong because it's that person's very own eyes.

If that person was 12 during the prime of someone's career and watched their highlights on Sportcenter at least 4 times a week, they are more than qualified to flip a coin and present baseless arguments using phrases like "I feel that....", "For me...", And "if you actually watched some of his games..."
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Carlos Lee and Ryan Braun are definitely Hall of Fame level players based on watching them tear the Cubs a new asshole every time. My eyes tell me so.
 
BSimp603 said:
Again, you got me. Seems like the best way to judge a player's worthiness of inclusion into the Hall of Fame is when agenda-laden sportswriters spend a decade debating them via nerd numbers, and only after no one is left to vote for in these esteemed, unbiased, old, white guys opinions, guys who may or may not cover the game anymore, only THEN are they deemed a Hall of Fame player.

lol.
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You're catching flak because a lot of people are becoming wise to individual stats and how to better analyze athletes as individual players.

Jeter is for sure a hall of famer. But some of the "stats" people jerk it to for him were completely out of his control. Those Yankee teams were elite, and he benefited as much as anyone else did. If Omar Vizquel played SS for the Yankees instead of the Indians people would tooting a similar horn for him as the are for Jeter. Same goes for Scott Rolen.

There should always be a way to peel back as much of the surrounding bullshit, pomp, and circumstantial story-telling and media driven memorable moments and actually look at the skill of the player, which is what the HoF should be about it.

If you're going to give Larry Walker a minus for playing at Coors Field, you have to be willing to minus a few points for someone like Jeter for playing with the teams he did.

Id love more arguments for/against inclusion based on how many times they faced HoF pitchers, what their ballpark stats were and comparables instead of "BuT ThE socK was BLooDY!"
 
Kasher said:
You're catching flak because a lot of people are becoming wise to individual stats and how to better analyze athletes as individual players.

Jeter is for sure a hall of famer. But some of the "stats" people jerk it to for him were completely out of his control. Those Yankee teams were elite, and he benefited as much as anyone else did. If Omar Vizquel played SS for the Yankees instead of the Indians people would tooting a similar horn for him as the are for Jeter. Same goes for Scott Rolen.

There should always be a way to peel back as much of the surrounding bullshit, pomp, and circumstantial story-telling and media driven memorable moments and actually look at the skill of the player, which is what the HoF should be about it.

If you're going to give Larry Walker a minus for playing at Coors Field, you have to be willing to minus a few points for someone like Jeter for playing with the teams he did.
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For instance, did you know that Jeter has FIVE Gold Gloves for being the worst shortstop of his generation in terms of Defensive Runs Saved (from when DRS became a stat in '03 through his 2014 retirement)?

According to FanGraphs, here is who cost their teams the most runs on defense from 2003-2014:

1. Derek Jeter (-152)
2. Prince Fielder (-95)
 
Kasher said:
If you're going to give Larry Walker a minus for playing at Coors Field, you have to be willing to minus a few points for someone like Jeter for playing with the teams he did.
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I would minus more than a few points for Jeter, for sure. He plays his career in San Diego or Seattle or some shit, and he's nowhere near 99.7% first ballot. He would have been right around Biggio's numbers, waiting a few years or so, where he should be. I just never understood these voters taking ten years to finally decide a guy is worth it.

It's extremely difficult to separate Curt Schilling the drama queen person and the pitcher, but I think you can look at his postseason work in Arizona and Boston and not think of it as media driven memorable moments, but as incredibly clutch performances with championships on the line. I still can't believe the Yankees didn't just bunt. His potential election will be appointment television next year, for sure.

I hope you guys don't make more fun of me on the internet.
 
BSimp603 said:
but I think you can look at his postseason work in Arizona and Boston and not think of it as media driven memorable moments, but as incredibly clutch performances with championships on the line. I still can't believe the Yankees didn't just bunt. His potential election will be appointment television next year, for sure.
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But these are the exacts types of situations we're advocating to be able to look past. Being clutch is not quantifiable. There is no doubt Schilling pitched his heart out in the postseason. But post-season success should be looked at one aspect of his career.

If you replaced Schilling with some September call-up in those situations who goes on to have a lackluster career and an ERA above 5.00, no one is citing his playoff heroics as a reason to get him into the HoF. As you kind of hinted at in your post, maybe the Yankees just sucked that night. Or the coach got the game plan wrong. There's no real way of knowing the actual measure of Schillings playoff-successability is. I don't think anyone remembers Schilling's actual pitching lines from those games and if they were actually significantly different than his average postseason stats.

David Freese is no where close to the HoF and he's probably an even more well know playoff deliverer.
 
Then I guess we fire up a PC, set some Cooperstown thresholds, and let it vote on the candidates, as it’s clearly trending towards a strictly scientific, quantifiable game and not one played by humans.

This is prolly where I get hit with that boomer line.
 
BSimp603 said:
Then I guess we fire up a PC, set some Cooperstown thresholds, and let it vote on the candidates, as it’s clearly trending towards a strictly scientific, quantifiable game and not one played by humans.

This is prolly where I get hit with that boomer line.
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It was always a stats oriented sport. Now we're able to further break them down instead of arbitrary milestones set at round numbers dictating who gets in.
 
sameasiteverwas said:
At least the Mets have a manager. And he's a long, lost Alou!
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I sent my dad this article, when he asked me about the different last name.

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He then responded “Matty used to kill the mets. Leadoff slap hitter. I feared him😬”

So, til that Matty Alou drove my ~10 year old father crazy.

Also, Luis Rojas has basically only ever worked in the Mets org. Legitimately worried about how the lolmets life has shaped him to this point.
 
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